A few things - and forgive me, I rarely have time to post on these boards, but the late meeting in Destin led me to water and the mindnumbingly vapid discourse made me drink. I'm not quite narcissistic enough to read the whole thing, so I'll only address a few things.
I love this gem - "And for all of those people who voted a second time for Bush and NOW feel extreme regret (and they exist in droves...) I say 'Shame on you because all the signs of gross and criminal incompetence and arrogance were there and wide open for all to see after 4 years!!'"
You know who he was running against, right? I'll give you a hint - it wasn't Lady Thatcher.
How was Bush awarded the Presidency? Thanks and I'll hang up and listen.
Chickpea, sorry to pick on you here, but can you give me a ballpark number of acceptable losses for a war? It always seems that the folks who quote Jefferson on the tree of liberty and the blood of the tyrants forget that he mentions patriots as well, and tyrants don't always include fellow countrymen and leaders. Not you, just saying.
"My father has always said that what the middle east (sic) desperately needs is a Nelson Mandela or a Ghandi (sic)" - We can send them Jimmy Carter. He likes taking poorly rooted cheap shots at the administration and the west as much as the former and his policies always kept people in squalor, like the latter. Win-win.
"We are a global community." That's a cute T-shirt and a swell Michael Jackson song, but it's nowhere near the truth.
"How do you go from a multi-billion surplus to a multi-million dollar deficit that fast" - You see, a surplus is when the government takes too much from you without paying interest. A deficit is when they don't take enough and they have to pay interest on the difference. You'd think that it would keep spending down, but you'd think wrong. Regardless, a deficit is the lesser of the three evils, with the third the worst yet - a balanced budget. That's when the government keeps increasing taxes until they get what they need - aka pay as you go. Also, Richards was as yellow dog as they come, no matter what she said.
"...it has nothing whatsoever to do with being a republican or a democrat - in fact it is amazing to me that so few republicans are angry with him given how he has pretty much violated the very precepts of his party such as fiscal responsibility, conservative spending and small government!" - Actually it does. When democrats don't get their way via will of the people, they appoint judges to do it for them, in what we know as a "living Constitution". At least the GOP lets the people decide. And since the undecided voter is more overblown than the stupid Kennedy conspiracies, voters usually favor small c-conservative candidates and policies. And Bush was elected by conservatives in spite of his views on fiscal responsibility, conservative spending and small government, not because of them. We all knew what we were getting in bed with, but it meant lower taxes, judicial reform and a global backbone. He was a "Compassionate Conservative", which means he spends like a sailor at port.
"Only immediate consolation is that Bush is such a lame duck right now that he is hopefully absolutely powerless." - regardless of your political views, that is really, really wrong no matter if the GOP is in power, the dems or the Whigs. I hope I don't need to explain why, but if I do, please pipe up.
"I naively never thought he would act so unilaterally, without thought or consideration of all he would bring about even as EVERY single INTELLIGENT agency was telling him his post war plans were flawed and ill considered." - This is a clich, I know, but I'd rather not ask the rest of the world for their opinion when it involves protecting this country's interests. And the second half of your statement is plain old not true.
McCain is as crazy as a sh*thouse rat - always has been.
And quickly - I'd much, much rather the rest of the world be pissed off at us when we are announcing our presence with authority than feel sorry for us because we just got sucker punched in the groin. On the karaoke chick, "she has accomplished what they claim the American Soldiers haven't been able to" - No, if it were not for American soldiers, she wouldn't have been able to perform in the first place. How quickly we forget the purple thumb, even if the savages can't stop killing one another right now. Yes, there were a ton of mistakes made in this war, and it was much more of a hornets' nest than we thought it would be, but you might as well whine to Thad Matta that he wasn't drilling his players enough on practicing their three pointers. I know that Risk is a really fun board game, and I'm sure you are all would be really, really good world leaders, but real war and real foreign policy is a little more complicated with a lot more unforeseen happenstances than a piece of cardboard.
It will probably be a few days before I can respond to the comments that I'm an idiot too, so please be patient and I'll try to patronize all of you when I have the time.
6thGen,
I am not about to accuse anyone of being an idiot nor do I intend to be patronizing even though I am sure I come off that way at times. I am going to try address your points succinctly because we are obviously worlds apart in our opinions and neither of us will EVER convince the other.
1) You say you love the gem I added about people regretting their decision to vote for Bush - I actually fervently wish I knew less Bush supporters than I actually do but I am surrounded by people here in this conservative part of Florida who have been vocal about this and do regret their vote - sorry - what can I say - I get angry with them but they are actually more angry at themselves than I am!
2) I remember who he was running against but I have no desire, will or inclination at this point to debate the merits of John Kerry - I know many people disliked and did not respect him but IMHO he would have been head and shoulders a better alternative - heck - anyone for that matter would have - no need to respond to this point though -it is moot.
3) How was Bush awarded the presidency????? Hmmmm, let's try recall the FACTS from 2000- Bush loses popular vote - yes, yes I know that does not matter - it is all about the electoral votes - so it is left to this State of ours and after months of hanging chads, lost votes, mistakes made on both sides, etc.. the supreme court HANDS him the presidency!
4) I have no worry about you picking on me - I have no idea whatsoever of what is an acceptable loss for casualties of war - what I do know however is that the losses suffered on both sides, but much much more so in sheer numbers on the Iraqi civilian side SHOULD be UNACCEPTABLE to all. Full stop. Period. Would you accept these losses here? Look at what happened when 3000+ innocent lives were lost on 911...... I will never be convinced this was a justifiable war. Simple as that.
I will also add that it is despicable, disingenious and hypocritcal to accuse people who vehemently oppose this war of being unpatriotic (and I am not saying you are doing this!) - I would add that this administration in their callous lack of regard for human rights and the ease with which they accept human sacrifice make them the unpatriotic ones.
5) Your stab at Carter and his policies fell flat with me - sorry - I am quite familiar with the nuances and difficulties of middle eastern politics and have my own ideas of what could possibly work. In an age where violence and bullying have become the norm I would welcome a visionary who could bring about change and democracy in a peaceful manner - you are welcome to call me naive and wishful.
6) I can skip portion of global community as I did not say that.....
7) Your disparaging comment about a balanced budget being regrettable is .. how do I put this....regrettable. Glad that you happy that you have been handed an unprecendented deficit - I trust that you will not mind if I tell you that probably many people are PISSED as hell about China holding such large IOU's.
8) I am just as tired as you seem to be about the debate on Bush being or not being a conservative and please tell me that you do not seriously believe that Bush is a compassionate conservative or fiscally responsible???? And absolutely NO, you did not all know what you were getting into bed with as you so quaintly and easily put it - read the dozens of editorials of hard core republicans who are sickened by how Bush and his party have violated and desecrated the tenets of the GOP.
9) Please do pipe up and explain who exactly is paying attention to Bush right now because I really really want to know? The people in this country??? Well maybe the 25% or so who approve of him -another 50% are paying no attention whatsoever with the remaining 25% probably actively working against him (these are just approximations and wishful thinking apart from the 25-30% approval rating which is actually thankfully documented (lest I be accused of being partial or biased!)...The house and Senate?? No -not them either? Oh, I see you mean other nations??? Nope, they have tuned him out and are now more interested in his successor - the UN possibly??? NO, sorry - they too have little interest in listening right now to his pathetic rhetoric... He is actually as lame as a lame duck can be - thankfully unelectable again - even more thankfully his VP is also unelectable, many members of his own party are running away from him and his policies in their own hopes of re-election - so pray do tell - who is listening and paying attention????
10) Your statement about prefering not to ask the rest of the world for their opinion if it involves protecting this country (and I going to try be very polite and not insulting here) is actually very sad because you probably believe the rubbish you are being fed. You probably believe you are safer now then before and how wrong and misguided you are in this. What your president has wrought upon this world with his arrogance and disregard is mindboggling and tragic - yes, tragic! For those of us who actually enjoy traveling, relish the differences in cultures and religions (and do not mock me by shooting down this argument by talking about suicide bombers or other extremists as I am talking about the vast majority of sane people who all want we all aspire to have - love, happiness health, etc..) we are dismayed by how much standing we have lost in the world and by how much more vulnerable we are.
And whilst many of my statements are indeed opinions as you state, my statement of the intelligence agencies of this country (you can happily forget other countries' intelligence for this point) telling him he was heading into an abject debacle is fact. You and I have absolutely nowhere to go if you believe this war was justified and if you do not believe that information was misused and trumped up in order to make a bogus case for war (for Christ's sake, even Powell now regrets his supposedly due dilligence and intelligence gathering!)
Real war and real foreign policy is as you say complicated. It is messy and hard and cannot be summarily summed up with bullet points and rhetoric. Too bad we had/have a president who could not respect due process, who found it alarmingly simple to march us into this war of madness on trumped up charges of protecting us, who bullied with embarrassing insouciance and indifference to other nations and who has now handed the world a mess of unimaginable proportions.
