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Bush is an idiot

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Well put, but the argument for the lack of change is the same one that has the EPA sitting on its hands regarding emissions, and you know how childish it is to see our Pres say, "if they[China,india] cheat, what's the point"? This is the argument of a man who supports the status quo. No excise taxes for gas hogs because you'll hurt an already wounded Detroit. Meanwhile the big three were invited to D.C. a couple weeks back, yet no invite for Toyota, which employs thousands of Americans and is leading the technological change we need. This is simply a lack of intellect and leadership, and protects the status quo, which means nothing changes until a catastrophe occurs. The free market does not work in the presence of monopolies or oligopolies, Econ 101. Government can and should incentivize change through a series of tax credits[high efficiency products] and excise taxes that will get the big 3 off their dimwitted, short-term thinking butts. You can't charge 40k for a mainstream, fuel-efficient everyman's car, yet everyone will line up for the extended cab, V-10, big wheeled slice of Americana, the SUV/Truck. They'll throw a six year loan on that pig and will be proud of it. That's it in a nutshell, because it's the way many folks want it. Both the everyman's fartbox and the over-chromed SUV cost about the same to produce and Detroit is going to be dragged kicking and screaming here along with half the American public in order to change to a sane energy policy. No one will leave the U.S. in the dust provided we have forward looking leadership that promotes our strengths.... technology and innovation. I've had six plus years of fear mongering about the middle east boogie-man is going to get us and the whole charade over there is nothing more than trying to manage the unmanageable. Adapt and leave those people alone!!!!!!!!!

Gas is taxed, and those that choose to use more gas are taxed more than those who choose to use less. I don?t want to get into it here, because scientists can come close to agreeing, but the global warming thing is completely overblown, and it is incredibly arrogant of man to believe that he has so much of an effect on weather patterns. Regardless, I?ll look at it from your point of view. The Big Three are far too protected (if they got rid of their unions it wouldn?t be an issue, again ? another topic), but they are no sort of a monopoly or an oligopoly. If the state believes that she should be protecting her hapless citizens, it could offer economic incentives to develop energy efficient products. The US does that. Look at what you are paying for ears of corn and you can mirror that to the state support of ethanol. The problem is that the market still can?t turn corn into fuel at a reasonable price, no matter how much the tax payers are chipping in to fund their research. The next step would be to put a heavier tax on gasoline. That?s fine, and if we are trying to lessen emissions, that would be one way to do it. Due to worldwide demand discussed earlier, consumers are already paying significantly more for gas than they were a few years ago, and again, you know whom the burden falls on. Depending on the severity of the tax, the state would risk severely crimping certain sectors of the economy, residential and commercial construction, the trucking industry (and to a lesser extent every industry it serves), youth soccer leagues, etc. while shifting capital to other sectors. The state is actually discouraging more widespread innovation by shifting private capital to higher earning sectors, rather than letting the market do as it would. As the price of gas rises, industries that cater to the aforementioned sectors have incentive to create more fuel efficient vehicles on their own, without state intervention. This is what we saw in the 70s, with the move from the General Lee to the Toyota Corolla. The problem I have with the Nader and Gore crowd is that the ones that plant the seeds are far more anti-development than they are anti-high water. Look at Nader?s history. I believe that the market has and will regulate itself much better without state intervention. As fuel consumption increases, assuming relatively constant demand, fuel prices increase. Therefore fuel users have a strong incentive to use more efficient vehicles. When the state steps in, to saver her citizens from their own stupidity, the state tends to screw it up. To give you a quick example, and please forgive my oversimplification ? the US had above and beyond the best rail system in the world in the 19th century. President Cleveland then decided that railroads had an unfair monopolistic advantage, so he decided to step in and help ?the consumer? out, regulating what the railroads. What he and his predecessors did, through overregulation, was destroy a solid industry, all to help out consumers. What they accomplished was far more of a burden on consumers than any help they intended to offer. I know that this is the equivalent of preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the caves of Pakistan, but I?d love for you to pick up a copy of Free to Choose, by Nobel Prize winning Milton Friedman (RIP). It will at least give you an opposing viewpoint. He explains far more eloquently there what I don?t have the time to do here. In short, I do agree that the US consumes far too much fuel, but I believe that the answer lies in a free market, rather than a government that tries to make things fair.
 
"Damn, Seababe, I've always considered Bach overrated. I did recently hear some Vivaldi that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up at San Stefano (the one in Venice)."

Vivaldi isn't to my taste actually neither is Bach but it was a requirement in music theory to be able to transpose it. Didn't like it then, don't now, and I'm actually more of a performer/teacher (play flute, piano, viola) with a taste for Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Scarlatti, Mozart, and Rimsky Korsakoff.

Is your middle name "condescending" by chance? Really....it's just not attractive at all I'm so turned off by uppity people. Intelligence is a great thing along with knowledge and experience traveling but snotty attitudes are so unappealing. High IQ's don't make you any better than the next guy.

I love jovial good natured people though. :)


Alanis Morisette could write another verse on your second paragraph. Yes, I probably came off as a condescending ahole, but I could list ten snotty attidue and condescending quotes from the rest of all of you to every one of mine, be it to our head of state or to those that agree with certain of his policies. Don't worry though, I'm trying to balance you all out, just give me time. You folks on the other side of the aisle are alright, you just need to realize your own hypocrisy and irony as you ask your right leaning friends to do the same. For instance, there is a poster on here who would shout from the mountaintop if the public sector (i.e. the state) decided to step into his bedroom, but he parades his bedroom to the public sector on a regular basis. I agree with him on the former, just not the latter.
 
"Alanis Morisette could write another verse on your second paragraph."

I love Alanis so I am going to take that as a compliment meant or not. Especially since I have published a book of poetry and so love to write...can ya tell? <smile>

"Yes, I probably came off as a condescending ahole"

Yes moreso than alot of other posters. I enjoy (as my husband, kids, and friends) will tell you a good debate. I enjoy learning from others always have, always will. Debate usually renders snippy remarks and snotty comments eventually I've learned from experience. My problem is with people who come off as "better than thou" because I'm not impressed with what you know I'm more impressed with who you "are".

Sorry to get off thread base. Trying to type and work at the same time not multi-tasking very well today.
 
Is your middle name "condescending" by chance? Really....it's just not attractive at all I'm so turned off by uppity people. Intelligence is a great thing along with knowledge and experience traveling but snotty attitudes are so unappealing. High IQ's don't make you any better than the next guy.

I love jovial good natured people though. :)

I agree. Now let 30-gAy handle this blow hard.
 
Damn, Seababe, I've always considered Bach overrated. I did recently hear some Vivaldi that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up at San Stefano (the one in Venice).

Hmm, are we to be as impressed with the depth of your cultural sophistication as well as your blazing intelligence?

I must protest.

A Vivaldi concert in the San Stefano? I think you mean the Chiesa di San Vitale, which is located at the southern end of the Campo San Stefano and hosts Vivaldi concerts in the evening.

Due to its location at the foot of the Accademia bridge, which puts it square on a well beaten tourist trail, the performances are geared to tourists and does not offer the highest quality in baroque musical concerts.

Anyone in the know, would attend a performance in the Scuola Grande di San Rocco.

Clearly, you are neither as brilliant nor cultured as you would like to think.
 
So the path to the Accademia caters less to tourists than the path to Saint Mark's? I'm shocked you made it there, given the Dolce and Gabbana, Guicci, and other stores of high fashion that are obviously catering to locals in the know.
 
So the path to the Accademia caters less to tourists than the path to Saint Mark's? I'm shocked you made it there, given the Dolce and Gabbana, Guicci, and other stores of high fashion that are obviously catering to locals in the know.


I said Scuola Grande di San Rocco, which is between the Dorsoduro and San Polo quarters of Venice and no where near the Piazza San Marco.

Apparently your IQ test did not contain a section on reading comprehension either.

But thank you for yet a second opportunity to make you look ridiculous.
 
Gas is taxed, and those that choose to use more gas are taxed more than those who choose to use less. I don’t want to get into it here, because scientists can come close to agreeing, but the global warming thing is completely overblown, and it is incredibly arrogant of man to believe that he has so much of an effect on weather patterns. Regardless, I’ll look at it from your point of view. The Big Three are far too protected (if they got rid of their unions it wouldn’t be an issue, again – another topic), but they are no sort of a monopoly or an oligopoly. If the state believes that she should be protecting her hapless citizens, it could offer economic incentives to develop energy efficient products. The US does that. Look at what you are paying for ears of corn and you can mirror that to the state support of ethanol. The problem is that the market still can’t turn corn into fuel at a reasonable price, no matter how much the tax payers are chipping in to fund their research. The next step would be to put a heavier tax on gasoline. That’s fine, and if we are trying to lessen emissions, that would be one way to do it. Due to worldwide demand discussed earlier, consumers are already paying significantly more for gas than they were a few years ago, and again, you know whom the burden falls on. Depending on the severity of the tax, the state would risk severely crimping certain sectors of the economy, residential and commercial construction, the trucking industry (and to a lesser extent every industry it serves), youth soccer leagues, etc. while shifting capital to other sectors. The state is actually discouraging more widespread innovation by shifting private capital to higher earning sectors, rather than letting the market do as it would. As the price of gas rises, industries that cater to the aforementioned sectors have incentive to create more fuel efficient vehicles on their own, without state intervention. This is what we saw in the 70s, with the move from the General Lee to the Toyota Corolla. The problem I have with the Nader and Gore crowd is that the ones that plant the seeds are far more anti-development than they are anti-high water. Look at Nader’s history. I believe that the market has and will regulate itself much better without state intervention. As fuel consumption increases, assuming relatively constant demand, fuel prices increase. Therefore fuel users have a strong incentive to use more efficient vehicles. When the state steps in, to saver her citizens from their own stupidity, the state tends to screw it up. To give you a quick example, and please forgive my oversimplification – the US had above and beyond the best rail system in the world in the 19th century. President Cleveland then decided that railroads had an unfair monopolistic advantage, so he decided to step in and help “the consumer” out, regulating what the railroads. What he and his predecessors did, through overregulation, was destroy a solid industry, all to help out consumers. What they accomplished was far more of a burden on consumers than any help they intended to offer. I know that this is the equivalent of preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the caves of Pakistan, but I’d love for you to pick up a copy of Free to Choose, by Nobel Prize winning Milton Friedman (RIP). It will at least give you an opposing viewpoint. He explains far more eloquently there what I don’t have the time to do here. In short, I do agree that the US consumes far too much fuel, but I believe that the answer lies in a free market, rather than a government that tries to make things fair.
6th Gen, You are contradicting yourself. Monopolies preclude competition. Freidman would be the first to tell you free market is out the window when we deficit spend and offer our young for oil supply. Your offer of sales tax is unfocused. Everything is taxed, that's not the issue. The economies of scale are so large here, the Feds could bring about change by spurring competition, not stifling it. Until recently the Feds rewarded the purchasing of high gross vehicle weight purchases. This is insanity! There must be incentive for innovation, and the argument that this will all happen when gas rises enough is that tired perspective of "I've got mine, what's your problem" attitude that infects our society. The lower and middle class don't need to be economically crushed to protect the interest of multinational companies. It's bad enough that a voluntary military is a defacto body tax on the lower rungs of society, now we combine that with asking they give their lives for oil. It's unnecessary, and it's embarassing to us as a people.
 
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Sorry for my mistake. My Italian isn't up to snuff, so some things run together. Maybe if I can make it over to Venice again before I hit 30, I'll be sure to ask you for directions. If not I just might end up lost like everyone else who's ever been to the city.
 
Bob,
You are changing the subject and moving the goalposts. First, monopolies do not discourage competition. Predatory practices may, but monopolies, unless they are state monopolies do not. As for weight subsidies, I?m for doing away with all subsidies, all tariffs, export taxes, and anything else that precludes free trade. Finally, please explain how the lower and middle class is crushed to protect the interest of multinational companies? If you refer to my rail example, I agree. The Feds stepped in to regulate the rails and crushed affordable rail transportation. If it is on the overregulation of drug companies, again we are on the same page. The excessive regulation may save some lives by making drug companies go through years of scrutiny and red tape, but the lives saved pale in comparison to the lives that would be saved if a drug is brought to market sooner. And the cost to get past that barrier stifles competition, so while costs are drastically increased for that reason, they are also inflated due tightening the doors to the market, putting a heavy burden on the middle and lower classes while protecting bigger drug companies from startup competition. As for the poor giving their lives for oil, please quit looking for black helicopters while we are having somewhat of a productive discussion.
 
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