Saddleback Forum

[hnooe]

Clearly you don't understand my views. If you did you would not expect to hear any such criticism from me...

I have no issue with any politican raising money or fishing for votes from the Auto Club of America, Boy Scout Meetings or churches (liberal or conservative, black or white)...

But I do have issue with any singular religion being so powerful that we see its pastor on stage grilling our two final candidates for POTUS. It makes me very uncomfortable irrespective of the religion...

I'm putting myself out there when I say this but quite honestly-

I get queasy when I hear our elected officials even mention God. Even "God Bless America" bothers me...

God sounds as outrageous and out of place to me in speeches by our elected officials as it probably does to you when you hear these guys say it in their speeches-


Whether it is Clinton, Bush, Obama, McCain, Ahmadinejad or Bin Laden-

I wish they would leave god out of government and politics. But they all do it. They deliver a speech, talk about defeating their enemies and then they praise god or bless their own country...

I imagine your smiley beating his head against the wall is about to increase the frequency or he has already knocked himself out...

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Excellent points GEO...I too have a real problem with the idea or any conversations about any "fair" discussions in any "Evangelical" setting. "Fair" and "Evangelical" are mutually exclusive terms.

Both Obama and McCain looked absolutely preposterous and phoney at Saddleback, like two little boys who played hookey from Sunday School and were forced to reveal their shortcomings in front of the full congregation. The political discourse in this country is descending back into the Dark Ages!

Oh, and here is a three headed banger

 

[Geo]

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Excellent points GEO...I too have a real problem with the idea or any conversations about any "fair" discussions in any "Evangelical" setting. "Fair" and "Evangelical" are mutually exclusive terms.

Both Obama and McCain looked absolutely preposterous and phoney at Saddleback, like two little boys who played hookey from Sunday School and were forced to reveal their shortcomings in front of the full congregation. The political discourse in this country is descending back into the Dark Ages!

Oh, and here is a three headed banger

For me it isn't a question of fair vs. unfair. I do not think there is anything intrinsically unfair about the Evangelical church or any other for that matter- especially considering that Obama is smart enough to know what he was getting himself into. Like I said in earlier posts- I actually think Rick Warren and his folks did a good job with the event...

I am just for separation of church and state and presidential debates (or whatever it technically was) in churches isn't separate enough for me...

 

[Geo]

Hello Hello! I am at a place called Vertigo.
It's everthing I wish I didn't know.
But you give me something I can feel. Feel. --Bono.

BTW-

You had me at Hello Hello...
I am a huge U2 fan!

 

[Linda]

For me it isn't a question of fair vs. unfair. I do not think there is anything intrinsically unfair about the Evangelical church or any other for that matter- especially considering that Obama is smart enough to know what he was getting himself into. Like I said in earlier posts- I actually think Rick Warren and his folks did a good job with the event...

I am just for separation of church and state and presidential debates (or whatever it technically was) in churches isn't separate enough for me...

After all of the comments on this thread about separation of church and state I looked up what the First Amendment actually says. I fail to see how The Saddleback Forum even comes close to violating the intent of the First Amendment.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=about_firstamd

 

[Geo]

After all of the comments on this thread about separation of church and state I looked up what the First Amendment actually says. I fail to see how The Saddleback Forum even comes close to violating the intent of the First Amendment.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=about_firstamd

Very fair point. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I meant not to imply that I believe anything at all was illegal or unconstitutional about Saddleback.

The fact that it happened is just, IMO, a commentary on how immersed this country and its citizens are in religion and how powerful some churches are...

 

[Linda]

Very fair point. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I meant not to imply that I believe anything at all was illegal or unconstitutional about Saddleback.

The fact that it happened is just, IMO, a commentary on how immersed this country and its citizens are in religion and how powerful some churches are...

The church is its citizens and these citizens vote - no different than any other organization.

 

[Bob]

Perhaps you have not read the musings of our Founding Fathers:

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
?Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together??

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
Patrick Henry:

?It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.? [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

But to quote a few.

just don't let in the Irish, the Mormons or the *****es.

 

[Kayak Fish]

I'd say that the Church has very little actual power in this country. The politicians like to placate the sizable relgious voting public by speaking in pious code and while sickening, this quazi-religiousity has little actual impact on our society.

The religious right is blamed for the difficulty that gays are finding getting marriage rights, for example, but they are basically larger society's convenient scapegoat for its widely held prejudices. Is Obama for "gay marriage"? Was Kerry? No and no. Religion is a nice excuse.

If actual Christianity had such a big impact on U.S. policies, then abortion, capital punishment, aggressive pre-emptive wars, etc, would have no place.

The idea that the Evangelical vote is "important" is based on the fact that it's easy to get and of a decent size so as to be worth getting. People motivated by anger, prejudice, and self-righteousness are easily moved to action. Tell them "Democrats want to kill babies and let the gays marry!" and they are "mobilized".

All that aside, I like what I have seen of Rick Warren. He is not of the Pastor Hagee ilk. He seems to want to do good works rather than just rant about the evils of homosexuality and Islam and the end of the world. It really is telling that we see a Christian minister on TV talking about helping the poor and the hungry around the world and he is "a new kind of Christian leader" in America.

The left need not worry about too much religion though: America is as nihilistic as ever and if anything our faith is in consumerism.

 

[Geo]

I'd say that the Church has very little actual power in this country. The politicians like to placate the sizable relgious voting public by speaking in pious code and while sickening, this quazi-religiousity has little actual impact on our society.

The religious right is blamed for the difficulty that gays are finding getting marriage rights, for example, but they are basically larger society's convenient scapegoat for its widely held prejudices. Is Obama for "gay marriage"? Was Kerry? No and no. Religion is a nice excuse.

If actual Christianity had such a big impact on U.S. policies, then abortion, capital punishment, aggressive pre-emptive wars, etc, would have no place.

The idea that the Evangelical vote is "important" is based on the fact that it's easy to get and of a decent size so as to be worth getting. People motivated by anger, prejudice, and self-righteousness are easily moved to action. Tell them "Democrats want to kill babies and let the gays marry!" and they are "mobilized".

All that aside, I like what I have seen of Rick Warren. He is not of the Pastor Hagee ilk. He seems to want to do good works rather than just rant about the evils of homosexuality and Islam and the end of the world. It really is telling that we see a Christian minister on TV talking about helping the poor and the hungry around the world and he is "a new kind of Christian leader" in America.

The left need not worry about too much religion though: America is as nihilistic as ever and if anything our faith is in consumerism.

Great post and thx for the perspective. Lemme buy you a beer next time you are in town/if you are local. I would love to hear more...

 

[30ashopper]

I shudder to think what would happen in Washington if our leaders there weren't being guided by a high moral standard.

Also, note that 85% of the country is religious, 80% of that Christian. Politicians involve themselves in forums like this precisely because so many of their constituents believe in God and Christ. To ignore faith in this country would pretty much guarantee they'd never get elected. It's important to a majority of Americans.

I'd also like to add - having been raised Catholic and having a love and respect for that church and it's doctrine, I'm a little insulted by some here implying my church has any similarity to Bin Laden's. You can apply religion in right ways and in wrong ways. Religion is not the enemy here. This country has been guided by religion since its founding. That guidance helped build the richest, most charitable, most prosperous nation in the world. I hate to think what would happen to this country if we completely removed some of our most cherished principals.