The US War - Five Years On

[6thGen]

I did some digging and this is the only non pom-pom post I found for darg.

"6th Gen, I am believe that you have confused ?Intellectually Honesty? with Dr. Friedman being Intellectually Systematic?there is a distinct difference. Dr. Friedman while he is very intellectually systematic looses his intellectual honesty as he nears his conclusion. He paints himself into an intellectual corner and is then forced to ignore much of his premise: much like the administration that we all know and loathe."

How does he ignore his premise?

"I also question his statement that we have not been attacked since 9/11. It appears to me that al Qaeda has attacked us from the safety of their Afgan caves. I have often wondered if al Qaeda is sitting back in those caves laughing its collective butt off as the US spins itself ever deeper into a greater disaster; an attack so devastating that al Qaeda could have never dreamed they could have had such luck, that is the quagmire of Iraq. It has cost not just the blood of our youth, nor just the hundreds of billions of tax dollars pouring out of our nation annually, but the albatross of devastation we call the Iraq war hangs heavily about the US neck and the global loss of credibility that we never thought possible has happened. Al Qaeda has launched a global terrorist attack and their weapon of choice? ?A clumsy, arrogant super power stumbling across the middle east trying to win an unwinnable war."

So you'd prefer fighting on our soil to theirs? I'm looking at this objectively and I don't know how else to read that. Are you surmising that if we play nice that they will leave us alone? And care to sparse that global loss of credibility comment? Thanks in advance, two bits.

 

[6thGen]

I think he's looking for a couple more people to jump in so he can brag about being able to take all of you on with half his brain tied behind his back.

I just had a chance to read this entire thread, and am impressed with the depth of the knowledge and analysis here on all sides. If this has not been a suitably intellectually honest debate, 6thgen, then what is? If it is something else I guess you will not find it here, so then why are you still here?

Really not trying to drive you away, just wondering. Thanks for starting this thread, I've taken much from it. I can't help but wonder whether our incurious leader bothered to parse things this carefully before jumping into Iraq. My guess is he stuck to the talking points only. Much more here than talking points. Nice job everyone.

I have nothing else to add, so I guess that makes me a cheerleader.

I think it is honest for the most part, but when the non sequiturs and logical fallacies progress towards the moonbat and tinfoil hat, I smack my head. If we are going to play that way I might as well just run with the "Democrats feed on baby children, hate Jesus and hate America" talking points and avoid actual debate all together.

 

[Rita]

........ I can't help but wonder whether our incurious leader bothered to parse things this carefully before jumping into Iraq. My guess is he stuck to the talking points only. Much more here than talking points. Nice job everyone.

I have nothing else to add, so I guess that makes me a cheerleader.

This was going through my mind also. If only there had been dialogue and debate and full consideration given to consequences of entering Iraq. This administration could have use you folks! I'm hoping our next president doesn't just stand by his/her convictions, but will seriously listen to debate on issues!
.

 

[Chickpea]

6th Gen,

I thank Uncle Timmy and a host of others for putting you in your place (which I am sure you will disagree about but it is how we obviously see it). Your callousness, insensitivity and ignorance know no bounds - you remain woefully uneducated of facts despite your arguments - do yourself a favor - travel and learn - you have visibly done very little of the former.

 

[6thGen]

It has yet to cease to amaze me how you all love to pat yourselves on the back for "putting me in my place". Shut the hell up about that. All I ask is that you engage me on the issues, as I have repeatedly done you. If you were conservative, 30Gay would be jumping on your case for not making any points and doing nothing more than throwing around insults. Oh, also, I think you meant "latter" instead of "former", because I'm fairly well travelled. Chickpea, you are not very smart, you don't know what the hell you are talking about, you choose platitudes rather than facts and you don't have the backbone to argue substance. See, it sucks, doesn't it? Now, pretend that you actually made a point before I said that.

 

[Teresa]

It has yet to cease to amaze me how you all love to pat yourselves on the back for "putting me in my place". Shut the hell up about that. All I ask is that you engage me on the issues, as I have repeatedly done you. If you were conservative, 30Gay would be jumping on your case for not making any points and doing nothing more than throwing around insults. Oh, also, I think you meant "latter" instead of "former", because I'm fairly well travelled. Chickpea, you are not very smart, you don't know what the hell you are talking about, you choose platitudes rather than facts and you don't have the backbone to argue substance. See, it sucks, doesn't it? Now, pretend that you actually made a point before I said that.

oh dear baby jesus... :roll:

 

[Smiling JOe]

This was going through my mind also. If only there had been dialogue and debate and full consideration given to consequences of entering Iraq. This administration could have use you folks! I'm hoping our next president doesn't just stand by his/her convictions, but will seriously listen to debate on issues!
.

A politrickshun actually listen to debate? Maybe they listen, but it is only to the people with money who put them in office.

 

[John R]

It has yet to cease to amaze me how you all love to pat yourselves on the back for "putting me in my place". Shut the hell up about that. All I ask is that you engage me on the issues, as I have repeatedly done you. If you were conservative, 30Gay would be jumping on your case for not making any points and doing nothing more than throwing around insults. Oh, also, I think you meant "latter" instead of "former", because I'm fairly well travelled. Chickpea, you are not very smart, you don't know what the hell you are talking about, you choose platitudes rather than facts and you don't have the backbone to argue substance. See, it sucks, doesn't it? Now, pretend that you actually made a point before I said that.

the burden of being so young and knowing everything must be very heavy. you ask to be engaged, yet follow up by throwing around insults like a child who hasn't gotten their way. quite sad, the (supposed)intellect is not matched by the tact. how's the pototo salad coming?

 

[6thGen]

the burden of being so young and knowing everything must be very heavy. you ask to be engaged, yet follow up by throwing around insults like a child who hasn't gotten their way. quite sad, the (supposed)intellect is not matched by the tact. how's the pototo salad coming?

OK, to all of the kettles out there, I'll recap.

I asked Timmy to explain why the US will shoulder the blame for the Iraqis killing each other. He showed that Republicans believe Saddam was responsible to 9/11. Non sequitur.

Timmy insinuated that we were completely reliant on MidEast oil. I showed that we were not. He then put up numbers from Saudi freaking Arabia which verified my point, but he shifted the goalposts by trying to frame the argument in numbers of barrels. I asked why the Sauds are going to quit shipping oil our way and why the regime is going to fall. I then began to detail (sorry, Tootsie) some history and showed why the Sauds are holding their breath. In other words, I helped answer the question for Timmy. However, I didn't answer it in full because the regime isn't currently facing any real threats of coup d'?tat. He replied that since there are Shia in the Sauds' oil producing regions, we should all climb under our desk.

I said that Arabs are prone to violence. He said I was arrogant and ignorant. He then pointed to a non sequitur and shifted a separate argument to fit his needs after I disproved his first premise, that the US is dependant on MidEast oil. Then everyone (including you) clapped, agreed that I was ignorant, and said that he put me in my place. Chickpea called me names and told me that I should travel more when she obviously meant to post that I should learn more. I replied in kind as an example. I think that about sums it up.

 

[Miss Kitty]

You know...some of us could really learn something here if we didn't have to read through the name calling and posturing. I like the lively debates from all, until while reading, I am interrupted with personal attacks.

As for being young...I used to have strong opinions on many topics, and was convinced I had most of the answers back in the day. It is exhausting "knowing" everything. Like a fine wine, I have mellowed over the years. But, unfortunately I have lost alot of my passion as well....especially in politcs and have found myself with my head in the sand way too often. That said, I thank you all for debating the hard issues and making me think.